Rebecca Rose Payne 0:00

Hi, everybody, and welcome to the Psychology of Success. Today's guest is Jeffrey Ornstein, founder and CEO of Jay Bryce Design International, which is a global design firm responsible for more than $5 billion in hospitality and luxury products around the world. Jeff also happens to be a personal friend of mine. So I am so delighted to have you, Jeff.

Jeffrey Ornstein 0:27

Thank you. I'm super psyched to be here.

Rebecca Rose Payne 0:30

And yeah, so I guess just getting started, what made you decide to start your own design firm?

Jeffrey Ornstein 0:36

Well, I had about four or five jobs when I got out of school. I've been a designer, hotel designer, my first job out of university. So it's really the only job I've ever had. And I was working on Caesars Palace and I was directing about $100 million a year there. And we had a rocky road, myself and my employer at the time. And I said to myself, you know, I can do this. And my parents were not thrilled about it because, in their mind, at 28, I was unemployed. I wasn't a new business owner. So I borrowed a typewriter from a friend of mine that didn't type W, and I had to handwrite in my W letters announcing I was starting a firm to my all of my clients and my big dinosaur Rolodex and sent them out, you know, 20 a day or whatever. And I had three projects by the end of the week. And I never looked back. I enjoyed being the master of my own destiny, and I wasn't scared about working, you know, 80, 90 hours a week and pounding the pavement. So there was no, I didn't have any emotional pushback to like this is gonna be hard. Yeah, I knew it was gonna be hard, but it was I thought the payoff was worth it. So I decided to go for it, and that was 38 years ago.

Rebecca Rose Payne 1:55

Wow. And so the payoff being not having a boss and being the master of destiny?

Jeffrey Ornstein 2:03

You know, design is so personal. And although I design hotels, so there's a lot of operations in that design that you have to factor into it and marketing, but you also want to you want to steer clear of cookie-cutter design because you want the hotel to be memorable.

Rebecca Rose Payne 2:19

Yeah.

Jeffrey Ornstein 2:20

And I'm not an academically trained interior designer. I was a painter and I studied architecture. Um, and I merged the two, my love of pattern and color and motif with my love of spaces and how they affect people, and became an interior designer, so I'm pretty much self-taught interior designer. So I don't really march to the beat of any other drummers. I don't have any formulas in my head because I never studied it. You know, I I kind of am, you know, intuitive about it. And, you know, of course, it's that intuition has matured over all 43 years now as a professional designer. But yeah, I didn't understand it when people would see my work and say they didn't like it because it wasn't blue enough or it wasn't bright enough or whatever. I was like, well, because that's not the way I see it. And I'm also a very respectful person. So I would never be confront confrontative with a boss or combative. But there's a little voice, or a big voice, in the back of my head saying, This is bullshit. You know, I mean, this is good design. And I think the proof is in the pudding that I've outlasted all of my previous employers.

Rebecca Rose Payne 3:28

Yeah. And it's interesting because design or even just like taste is something that's so subjective.

Jeffrey Ornstein 3:37

Absolutely.

Rebecca Rose Payne 3:38

So to be able to design something that people, I mean, objectively, are like, no, that's beautiful, is definitely tricky, and particularly without all the like education and formulas to back you up.

Jeffrey Ornstein 3:53

That's right. And since I wasn't drawing from the interior design world, I was drawing from the fine art world. So my inspirations came from some of the world's greatest artists and some of the greatest architects because I'm so drawn to space and how it affects people. And I have wonderlust. So within five years, Jay Bryce was international, and we were working in India, then Dubai, then Qatar, then Saudi, and then Egypt. And what I loved about traveling to these places was absorbing the culture and then reinterpret it. You know, you don't want to make just some phony, you know, Americans' view of Qatar. You want to absorb it and then translate it through your own vision. I had an art teacher once who said no painter ever painted a horse the way everyone else painted out of their brain. They they were impacted by every horse that was ever painted. So I love taking in all these different items, you know, whether it's music and food and fashion and climate, geography, all these things, you can take it in and then create your interiors with all that special sauce into it. So that's something about my job that I've loved and has been, you know, part of my life for the last 35 years, immersing myself in cultures.

Rebecca Rose Payne 5:10

Okay, and then if we like take it back a little bit, what was your childhood like? Like, do you think that my childhood?

Jeffrey Ornstein 5:19

Yeah.

Rebecca Rose Payne 5:20

Do you think that there were things that like impacted you, or what do you think made you how you are?

Jeffrey Ornstein 5:26

Okay, so that's it's an excellent question. So I'm not a psychologist, but I understand I think was it Freud who had the four siblings, the overachiever, the black sheep, the entertainer, and the quiet one, someone famous. Yeah. So I'm the entertainer for sure. So I had an older brother who was an overachiever. I had another brother who could do no good, and I saw, you know, the attention the parents were given, you know, good boy, good boy, bad son, bad son. And I said, I'm not going to compete with that. So I'm going to be creative. And so I always had crayons and paints and Legos. I was building houses with my Legos from day one and drawing houses, you know, with a ruler and my sketch pad. And also, you know, I wasn't the most masculine young kid. So, first of all, back up, I had three brothers and we were three, four sons within six years. So we were at each other's throats every day. You know, there wasn't a day when blood wasn't shed. So I learned growing up, you got to stick up for yourself. So when I was in my teeny early teens and teens, you know, and kids can be really cool, I didn't take anything from anybody. You know, being gay was certainly not kosher in the 70s. And I would fight. So I didn't like anyone telling me no, or you can't be that or you can't do that. So I always just stood up for myself. And when I started my company, I was like, no, is not an option. Failure is not, I really live by that. Failure is not an option. I also, you know, I didn't have a trust fund and I was determined to make it work. And so I just did it.

Rebecca Rose Payne 7:09

Yeah, but that's so interesting that you between growing up with four siblings fighting for attention and then having to kind of fight to be who you are and not take no, it was almost like, I mean, I can imagine that was like you either failure is like to give up and be like, okay, yeah, beat the shit out of me.

Jeffrey Ornstein 7:29

Right. And you know, a lot of young people, I mean, it's no secret that gay young people have a very high suicide rate and they withdraw and they they don't feel worthy and they don't feel, you know, that they're going to survive or they're going to be loved or they're going to be successful and the world doesn't understand them and they don't share these opinions with that thing, and it can have very detrimental effects on their psyche. And for me, I never felt that way. I felt like, get out of my way, world, because I'm coming. And if somebody put a roadblock in, I was more determined to be successful. So I always I always felt that way. I never felt sad or frustrated or the world was against me. I felt, you know, the world's going to do what the world's going to do, and it's not going to change my opinion or my approach.

Rebecca Rose Payne 8:17

Yeah, and I could see how that really impacted you in business. And I mean, even from your first job, I think a lot of people might be like, oh, my boss doesn't like me. He doesn't think it's blue enough. I better make it more blue, as opposed to being like, no, it's perfect. Fuck off.

Jeffrey Ornstein 8:33

No, I don't think so, homie. No. And you know, just so we're clear, I'm still learning today. You know, I'm still experiencing new um inspirations daily. Okay. So it's not that you can't be taught mentored or taught or learn something new. You definitely can. But when deep down inside there's a voice telling you, I don't think so. I think I'm right. And it's not just willful, you know, disregard for some senior's authority. It's like I was confident. I was always confident, even in the face of adversity. And to be a good designer, you have to be confident because you are selling something that has no tangible value unless you say it's valuable. The best doctor saves the most lives, the best lawyer wins the most cases. There's no best designer. Who's the best designer? Whoever says so. So if you can say you're the best and back it up with reasons why, explain to your clients why this is a great design for them, then you're right. Because it's your opinion. And I don't present my idea for you. I want to listen to you. I want to understand how you live, what you eat, how you socialize, how you interact with your family, and then interpret that. So it's not about me. There are designers that make their career perfecting pink and purple. Laura Ashley, Floral on Floral. I mean, Mario Bota, the Prince of Chin, so and fantastic, you know, Armani undertones in the same palette. They're great designers. That's not the formula that I use. What I used was be a sponge, absorb everything you can, and then design for that particular person or project.

Rebecca Rose Payne 10:24

Yeah. I mean, and that's so interesting because I'm now finding myself wondering like, how many fabulously talented designers are there that just when asked like to explain their design was like, um, well, I don't know, maybe it's not perfect. Well, I don't know, maybe that just kind of fall by the wayside.

Jeffrey Ornstein 10:42

Oh, well, what happens is you're absolutely right. There are there's some people that are incredibly talented and not so articulate. And it's the combination of doing some great work and then being able to explain it. Because, you know, some people, clients, or they'll look at something and they'll wrinkle their nose. Or they'll, uh, you know, I don't know. I'm not sure. And you have to convince them why it's right. And if it's not right for them, you should have known. But if you didn't know, draw it out from them. Well, what is it about this that's not getting you excited or making you uncomfortable? You know, oh, it's green. You were locked in a closet that was painted green your old childhood. You know, there's got to be a reason. So there are incredibly talented architects and designers that, in my experience, have an issue expressing themselves outside of just their work. And, you know, yes, sometimes the work should speak for itself, but it doesn't always, you know. We are still selling in our industry. You're selling your visions and your ability to step up to the plate and create the the perfect interior. So I think that that's been a big benefit for me that I am a confident person and that I was able to articulate why I did what I did. Because you still need customers at the end of the day. You could have the greatest work, but if it's not being built, then nobody knows about it.

Rebecca Rose Payne 12:09

Yeah, and I think also, okay, so two things. One is I think you it sounds like you managed to strike the right balance of like confidence without being like having so much ego in it that you, if somebody critiqued this, like, I don't like this, that you're like, well, how dare you? Like this is per.

Jeffrey Ornstein 12:31

No, because I said it just last night, I was interviewed for a new project, and I'm explaining sort of the directions we would take for this condo tower. And I said, you know, at the end of the day, not only is it not my money, I don't live here. I'm gonna come, work, and go. And you guys are gonna stay behind. So for me to design something and build something for you that I like but doesn't satisfy you on an emotional level, that's a failure. So I love getting into people's brains like that and figuring it out. And because, you know, people come from all walks of life, you know, and even within any, you know, condo tower or hotel, think about how many different kinds of people go to any one hotel on any given day. Yeah. You know, what is it going to be that's going to be successful? Whether it's a revenue generating asset or it's uh a residence, we don't do a lot of residences, but we do public spaces in the towers, of course. That's going to be successful. So at the end of the day, the people who use it, rent it, live there are always happy. So, and you know, I like blue. Does everybody know? So, you know, blue's not always the answer. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it's not.

Rebecca Rose Payne 13:44

It's honestly making me just hearing you talk is kind of making me understand a part of art classes that I missed in taking them, like in college and stuff. Because I would always like, you'd get the assignment, you'd do the assignment, and then there's the critique, and they want you to like write about it and explain it. And I was like, I did what you told me to do. Like, what do you mean I have to explain it? Like, why do I have to it's art, like I have to justify it? I don't understand. But now hearing you talk about how important that is makes so much more sense for me.

Jeffrey Ornstein 14:18

Also, because it's a business.

Rebecca Rose Payne 14:19

Yeah.

Jeffrey Ornstein 14:20

You know, I mean, a painter probably doesn't have to explain why he painted what he painted, you know. I mean, I'm sure, like, you know, you look at Pollock, you know, this really abstract expressionism. He could probably talk for hours about why he painted what he painted. And a lot of people would be sitting there going, huh? You know, looks like drips to me. But a lot of painters don't have to explain it. It is what it is. My work speaks for myself. But in design, interior design, interior architecture design, it's a business. So you want to also walk that balance between being an artist and being a business person? Because we're talking about, you know, really large sums of money, you know, being invested in what you're recommending. So you gotta do your research and then explain it well.

Rebecca Rose Payne 15:07

Was there ever a time where you really where you did question yourself, where you were like, oh, I might have bit off more than I can chew. I don't know if this is gonna work. But how did you handle that?

Jeffrey Ornstein 15:18

Well, yes, you know, because I don't think I've ever said no to a project. I mean, we don't we wouldn't go down the path too far if it was a smaller project. We don't do four-bedroom homes or anything like that. But you have to rise to the occasion. And I'm not the kind of person that scales up the office and scales down and scales up. I mean, they're very common in architecture. They hire 20 people, they let go 10 people, they hire 50 people, they let go 60 people. We've had a pretty consistent staff here at Jay Bryce. The average tenure is well over 17 years for every employee. I had two that were 29 years. I like to keep the team together because then you become a well-oiled machine and you can anticipate each other and compliment each other. But yeah, you know, business can be scary. We're flying to the other side of the world. I did a hotel for General Sisi, and we're presenting in a room with six armed guards with, you know, machine guns, you know, and you're like, you're sitting there saying, I'm Mr. Confident, but like, you know, here I am in Cairo, and this is a little bit, you know, I better be right. But I take everything very seriously. I don't take anything for granted. No detail is too small. And there are, sadly, like in any profession, there are people who like to wing it a lot, you know. And then they try and, if they're called out on something that was wrong, that's a word, they kind of talk it over, you know. And clients, people know that. They know when you're not being authentic. So do what you say you're gonna do, right? And be honest about it. So I'm I'm very detail oriented conceptually, but I hire people who are very detail-oriented practically, you know. So I surround myself with those kinds of people because they help be very good yin to my yang.

Rebecca Rose Payne 17:05

Yeah. And so has pursuing this career, I mean, you mentioned having to work and not being afraid of working like 90 hour weeks. Are there things or like sacrifices that you had to give up that were notable or things you didn't do? Absolutely.

Jeffrey Ornstein 17:23

I tell people, I've told people my whole life, and it's absolutely true, that I don't remember my 30s. I really don't, because I I were I started my company at 28 and I worked around the clock through my 30s. And it was like at around 37 that we really started to really blossom with our international projects. But I don't remember, did I have a ski house, did I have a beach house? I wasn't dating because I I didn't have time to go out and meet new people. I had, luckily, I had a large cachet of friends from after I graduated university and when I first moved into Boston, and they remained my friends until my 40s because I didn't add a lot of new people because I was working. So the sacrifice was, you know, developing personal relationships and free time to do, you know, goofy things that you might want to do in your early 30s. But the reward was there, you know, I was making a name for myself and being respected as a business-oriented designer. I'll say that. And that was really important to me. Because I didn't want, again, in any industry, there are flighty people out there, and certainly interior design is not, you know, immune to that. And I really didn't want to be a flighty interior designer. I wanted to be really respected for my business acumen. And of course, I never took a business class, so everything was learnt, you know, day to day. But I loved it. I really did love it. And I had a lot of great people that helped me build J. Bryce from the early days. So that made it easier.

Rebecca Rose Payne 19:00

Was there a point where your parents and your family kind of came around on you having your own company?

Jeffrey Ornstein 19:06

And yeah. There was when I was invited to India, so that was like when I was 34 or so. And my father loved beautiful clothes. And he really and my mother had great taste. So she would dress him beautifully. He always looked, you know, really well put together. And they were like, I said, I'm going to India. I was invited by, you know, the president of Taj Hotel Group, and they're going to bring us to all these different cities. And I'm not telling this on the phone, actually. And when I came home, the next time I came home, they had all these clothes laid out on a bed that they had gone to Neiman Marcus and something. They're like, you can't wear the rags you live, you work in. Because I would I would wake up sometimes in the morning, I'm like, where are my shoes? I can't have my shoes. My mom was like, oh, they were disgusting. Your father through the mouth. And you expect me to buy you new shoes. But you know, I had no money, and I was wearing sneakers and jeans, and I had my favorite shirts that were probably 15 years old. So they bought me a whole new wardrobe to go on this international business trip. What was the question again?

Rebecca Rose Payne 20:12

When they came around on Oh, yeah.

Jeffrey Ornstein 20:14

So they came around when I was invited to India, and I looked terrific, I gotta say. And they gave us a project our very first day there. So I don't know if it was the close or if it was the way I discussed my work, but something clicked. And then when I came back with the contract, they were, you know, okay, you know, there's a role, you know, he's got all these domestic projects going on, and now he's got something in India. I mean, you're hiring so you're hiring a designer that's going to come back with at least one assistant, and that's like at the time, probably $7,000 in tickets alone, just to get you to walk through the door.

Rebecca Rose Payne 20:49

Yeah.

Jeffrey Ornstein 20:50

So that's a sign of confidence. So that I think it was when I got Bombay, the project in Bombay, that that that solidified me, not as a joker.

Rebecca Rose Payne 20:58

But I think you also you touched on something important there also in talking about your clothes, which was that you said like you started at 28, this is when you're like 34, and you still haven't like gone shopping, gotten clothes, didn't have any money. And that's I mean, six years of working 90 hour weeks, I think a lot of people would have given up by then and been like, you know what, this is I'm never gonna make it this, I put so much work in and hit my limit.

Jeffrey Ornstein 21:27

Well, it's an excellent point. And, you know, I never went to a meeting looking disheveled, but I was putting all my money back into the company. So, and bringing on more people. And, you know, when you're the business owner, you're promising people a paycheck. They have families, they have rent, they have children, they have they need food, they have car payments, and they're take putting their trust in you that you're going to provide that paycheck every two weeks. So I had not just myself to take care of, but anyone who I offered a job to. To. And I think we were probably about six or seven people within two years. I'm sure we were. It's a lot of overhead. And of course, if you're the owner, you're the last online to get a paycheck, obviously. You're not going to take a paycheck in. And I will tell you, in 38 years, no one has ever missed a paycheck. Not by one day. Because that's a responsibility I take very, very seriously. But dang, when the money started rolling in a little bit because the projects were better budgets, I did discover clothing.

Rebecca Rose Payne 22:33

Well, and it sounds like you come by it naturally, given your parents.

Jeffrey Ornstein 22:36

Right. Well, I also learned recently uh from 23andMe that I'm 31% Italian. Oh. So my love of fine Italian clothing now makes sense. It's in my blood.

Rebecca Rose Payne 22:47

Yes. So we're just about out of time, but I just had one more question.

Jeffrey Ornstein 22:52

Sure.

Rebecca Rose Payne 22:53

Which is so we've kind of gone through like the trajectory of your career. When you tell your story like years from now and you think about the way that you lived your life and the way that you've defined success throughout your life, what do you think is mattered most to you in the way you've lived? And what are you most proud of?

Jeffrey Ornstein 23:14

Having integrity. I mean, absolutely. You know, because like I could design an interior for people and you get a hundred people go through there and you get a hundred different opinions, right? I mean, of course, the opinions that matter most to me are my clients. But again, like I'm not curing cancer. I'm not going to be remembered by changing humanity. There was a time when I was very concerned that, you know, there are people that are helping the underprivileged or building houses for the homeless or putting farmers that are feeding America. And I was making sure people were sleeping on 700 thread count sheets, you know, and being cushy and making a gorgeous lounge and bar. And I felt I will tell you, that I started feeling a little self-conscious. That some people were really having an effect on the world, and my effect was really only affecting the 1%. And so I started volunteering at that time at different shelters and for the veterans and everything. And I did that for a while because I had to.

Rebecca Rose Payne 24:10

When was that?

Jeffrey Ornstein 24:11

When was that? Yeah. That was about when I was 37. I worked at the Pine Street for quite a while. And then for AIDS dinners, you know, I saw as a server for victims of AIDS when that was, you know, the mid-90s for a couple years. So, and now I'm, you know, I've actually changed my focus. I'm a big supporter for animal rights and um animal shelters. I mean, I hate to say that I bought my dog from a breeder because I I've learned this in about the last five years since I got my dog. And I would never, I would only take from shelter now when I went from everything I've seen. But what I would want to be most remembered for as Jeff was talented, but he was honest. That he did what he said he was going to do, and he had very high standards for honesty. And that's something that very important to my dad. He drilled into us, and it always stuck with me. So no shortcuts.

Rebecca Rose Payne 25:06

Yeah. And I mean, I'm also I asked like when you were talking about volunteering, because sounds like that was the time that you were also working 90 hour weeks and then volunteering.

Jeffrey Ornstein 25:18

Right. Well, you know, and I but I was I had better income by then, you know, after I, you know, about eight years or so, and I was, you know, living this high life, flying around the world and everything. And I I really I became a little self-conscious about my work does not affect a lot of the world. A very small community. So it was, you know, no great endeavor. It was, you know, whatever. Three hours twice a week volunteering in a food shelter, food co-op food shelter, or serving them or, you know, helping them have passions, arts and crafts, and things like that. But it was important to me, and it still is important to me.

Rebecca Rose Payne 25:57

And I mean, I think that's three hours more than a lot of people give to that type of thing.

Jeffrey Ornstein 26:02

So it's so easy. And you know, when you're online in a food shelter and you're serving people and these unfortunate people who, you know, whatever life has not worked out the way they wanted it to, and they look at you and they say thank you, it's really rewarding. And it all it's like going to the gym, you know, you just gotta get in the car, and once you're in the car, you're there and you can do the heavy lifting. But to go to a homeless shelter and work with people who really have a hard time getting through, and they say thank you, that can really have an impact on you.

Rebecca Rose Payne 26:35

Yeah. Good. Well, thank you so much for your time.

Jeffrey Ornstein 26:39

Thanks for having me. I'm dying to see the folks who are really making a difference in the world. Um, I understand you've got a a neat roster lined up. And it was a pleasure being here with you.

Rebecca Rose Payne 26:51

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Jeffrey Ornstein 26:52

All right, so long.